Viili-Kefir (or Kefir-Villi) Discussion

[Nancy]

This is the second new topic of today and I am topic-ed out and thinking-about related matters-out. This will be the barest beginning of what I hope will become at least my record of experiences and maybe others will try.

1. You cannot succeed in the way that I began to see, with Long Form Viili. You need Short Form Viili.

Long Form viili will combine with kefir and you will taste both but the ropey viili ruins any chance of thickening in a way that is appetizing. I think vast numbers of people wouldn't know there is something better who have tried combining the two cultures. Yes, kefir can be thickened but you'd like it better using a custardy non-distracting type of viili instead of a take center stage easily-gain-attention type of viili, the long form.

When I combined the viili in the custardy form it worked to initially create a thicker lemony tasting kefir. My custardy form eventually transformed to what it remains, no going back now, Long Form viili.

That's what I ordered from an Australian ebay supplier. We thought I'd been sent the wrong culture! But no... I had the long form it took a while to develop. I do have yemoos LF viili in the freezer pending move.

Smearing the jar with the culture may have been a factor in the viili form change instead of merely adding it to milk giving it a stir and letting it sit.

The passage of time in the state of Hawai'i with maybe unique character might have played a role.

2. Mixing can be done as Nathan suggests in a thread on thickening kefir, in the first of two such thickening threads I think.

Thickening is achieved. The results are not merely viili with no kefir because even though viili is the faster set up there are ways to compensate.

3. From here on the sequence of events using viili in its evolving form from Short to Long because either way we are looking at, for a start

whether it can be done,
whether it damage or changes kefir grains,
how the results differ in several different scenarios, and
whether or not kefir-villi can take a second ferment with another food such as raisins, which I tried.

[Nancy]

Do you know what the ropes actually do in the intestines? I did not and found this article. Intuitively it seems correct and reason to stop even for smoothies the Long Form.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16772550

Another article tells us that viili cremoris depends on lower then 86 degrees F to develop at all and shows a much more positive health benefit outlook:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... view_Study

So if one wants to try short form viili heat long form viili in warm water.

[Nancy]

'So if one wants to try short form viili heat long form viili in warm water.'

Next day: that doesn't work. I tried beginning viili culture in hot tap water bath, and 'dissolving' gelled viili culture in hot tap water bath.

Coming up soon though, after around 2 weeks I may have information on the results of the burning question, will it affect the grains? But must wait to actually taste the culture early tomorrow morning. Culture is complete lid on and in the refrigerator. We do not have what I initially had on beginning research ... smooth glassy surface just like gelled viili. We have something it cautiously is possible to say is new, different and stable.

I saved most of those grains somehow carefully - - ones that were used when I either lined the jar with viili or a few times, before doing that when I first tried the combination of the two cultures, spooning a little in to liquid milk at the outset of the kefir culturing.

[Nancy]

'So if one wants to try short form viili heat long form viili in warm water.'

'Next day: that doesn't work. I tried beginning viili culture in hot tap water bath, and 'dissolving' gelled viili culture in hot tap water bath.'

Exciting result! For me, definitely exciting, and I must emphasize, the short form viili is a more calm and tasty version of the flavor you like about Long form viili because it lacks the cremoris 'distraction' - I woke up today and tried the viilis I had submitted to the above treatment from the point of smearing the sides of the jar with long form viili. The cremoris is gone. It did not survive and what Is eft is back to what I enjoyed before the cremoris became activated over the course of time. I get too wordy and hope I am clear. You can try short form viili if you do something similar with a test jar of your own long form. Yay.

We will see how long this lasts. The cremoris could be lurking but no evidence of it physically. No rope.
+
As to viili-kefir: Very interesting result. But another two jars are begun now to test the closed lid, used cloth alternatives. Recall that viili 'need a cloth covering' for culturing, at least that is what I read and assume is true. Because for the first 1 1/2 - 2 hours of culturing of the viili-kefir-associated grains* I used a closed lid as that is the way I culture kefir normally for reasons not the subject of this thread. Then, recalling I needed to give whatever viili influence may have permanently altered the viili-kefir affiliated grains a chance too! So, removed lid and continued culturing for @10 hours or so maybe a little less with a red-white checked thin cloth (my way of symbolizing v-k combo - red being k and white being v).

Testing the result very early this morning: it is thick, thicker than normal kefir which is usually thick because of the way I culture it. No rope at all. Has the combination of two flavors: but a milder bite from kefir and the custardy taste of viili.

*viili-kefir affiliated and viili-kefer associated grains refers to grains used in the culturing of both cultures when I decided to begin experimenting. I saved them.

SO: I am testing two jars closed and open lid having divided the viili-kefir affiliated grains. Will report back when it has completed culturing and before refrigeration.

I guess there are other angles to outline for you that I plan to test from here; I know they will occur to me as soon as I lie back down. it is extremely early and I normally am not in gear and typing and don't want to continue. Over and out! Submitting un-reread post unchecked.

[Robinstar]

Hi Nancy!

Wow so much good information! It sounds like you love experimenting. I'm too scared to mix villi with my kefir, but its good to know you can use the short version. Thank you.

[Nancy]

5 - 6 hours on warm counter top two jars report follows. I think I I reported I'd started the two jars when this began.

These jars contain viili-kefir associated / affiliated grains I have preserved for a couple of weeks or so. To remind readers, these are the grains I used from the beginning of the quest to combine the cultures if possible. I reserved them. As to the jars they were not lined / coated with viili. Milk was added to each. Happens to be ultra high heat pasteurized the only kind available here. Works fine for all culturing.

One jar had a lid and the other one had a cloth. We are seeing the results of only the grains, the modified grains.

As an important aside! I am also culturing viili (the new 'short form' by itself with a lid. It is coagulating fine without the cloth and with a lid from the moment I added milk to a lined / coated jar though it may have taken a little longer. Not sure about that.
+
Back to the two jars report:
Both jars coagulated/cultured I just checked. The jar with the cloth went slightly faster but the jar with the lid is not far behind. The jar with the cloth is being lidded and placed in refrigerator.

Note on consistency:
1. very very thick.
2.A slight tendency to a teeny bit more of a pronounced drip effect then normal kefir handled the same way if liquid is left to fall from the spoon, in either culture. This implies viili is merely sleeping but is not at all pronounced and the thickness is satisfactory and greater than kefir even though my normal kefir always cultured with a id and always stirred regularly with some enthusiasm is quite thick.

Taste, who knows or rather I do have some idea based on experience I'm not tasting these jars soon but they will be refrigerated. It has both bite and gentleness. Yippee, for the near term.

[Nancy]

Update: after some time experimenting and preserving grains from viili-kefir combination - meaning either lining the jar with viili and adding kefir grains and milk and allowing to culture or adding some viili to milk to which I had already added kefir grains, which I used to do, and allow to ferment, the grains do change 'permanently.'

It seems that the mixture made with these grains alone, treating them as if they were kefir grains, they culture producing a thicker mixture but for some reason maybe someone else has an idea about... the culture will produce whey when done but not nearly as much, not as obvious, no matter how long left to culture. One finally has to refrigerate.

As to taste, sour but gentler, milder. Not as bland as short form viili might seem to some though. It is a combination of kefir and viili.

[Nancy]

Re, mentioning short form viili in previous post - I am not sure whether I mention short form viili in this thread, but it is made from long form viili by the application of heat - a bath in which a jar oc long form villi is set until the water cools, and this done several times. The heat level being the hottest one can get from a tap.

The taste of short form viili is better by far for me than long form because the matrix in the long form is distracting, very distracting. Fun and novel but not tasty.

[Nancy]

Well, am officially 'composting' the grains. They have past the point of being truly useful except to augment with fermentation helpers other things I might prepare. The combining of the two cultures does permanently affect the grains.